TOPIC: PMMA - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

boost, how Girth did you gain and how much have you since lost? Basically what was your starting Girth, 6 week post op Girth and current Girth?

Hi HC,

As we know we cannot have a perfect aesthetic results from pmma injection, but there are many criteria which can reduce the unpleasant aesthetic results imo :-

1- The most important the lower the conc. of pmma e.g. 10@ has a better aesthetic result than the 20%, also it could be the mixture of the 30%+10% (imo) does not give you almost evenly distributed 20% pmma beads i.e. there will be some parts of the mixture contains still 10% and other part of the mixture will contain 30% --->i.e. the end result will be different collagen texture between the 10% and the 30% in different parts of the penis ??? I might be wrong.

2- A small volume of pmma injected in each session will give you a better aesthetic result than a large volume e.g:-

SO has a better aesthetic results he had as far as I know in the 1st two rds 10% and in the 3rd rd. @20% but he had small volume of pmma injected in each rd e.g. in the 2nd rd. 11cc.\'s and in the 3rd rd. 13 cc.\'s + 1cc.@10 near to the glans.

3- The technique of the doctor :- It is always advised to continue the smooth flow of pmma during injection in order to avoid depositing the material irregularly. And it should be injected in a threading technique as the cannula withdrawn to get the most even micro-strands and not micro-droplets, of deposited material.

This is the technique advised for Artefill :-

www.asds.net/asdsa/content.aspx?id=1364

That is the same what I feel in my penis like a strands of thick collagen running along the long-axis of my penis and the outer surface of these thick strands feels smooth but the gap (around 0.2-0.3\" in width) between these strands (i.e. the sidewalls of these strands) is rough, so for my touch-ups I need a small volume of pmma (10%??) to fill these gaps, (I wished if Dr.Samy didn\'t space these collagen-strands).

Dr.C. has a great experience with pmma penile bioplasty, and his technique is still being perfected.

4- The site of injection :- PMMA under thin skin will definitely give you nodules and irregularities, so this has to be avoided (e.g. the gap behind the glans) that was one of the reasons Dr.Samy refused to do it at this area and the other reason in his opinion the risk of skin necrosis. Also the anatomy at this area is different from the rest of the shaft; it is too tight and the transition at this area is irregular looks like-finger outgrowth spaces thats why if you get these beads injected at this area the new collagen formed will look finger-like outgrowths.


5- Early post-pmma injection protocole :-

Is very important but still we didn\'t reach the method to help in distributing the pmma beads evenly directly post-injection (massaging +wrapping -/+ the Roller\'s technique??)
In summary :-

If someone is looking for a better aesthetic result (but with less gains with more sessions) is to have only 10% with a small volume injected in each session. Otherwise if anyone who had already received 20% in his previous rd.s (and going for only touch-ups) he should get in his last 2 rd.s small volume @10% (I think by this volume and the lower conc. --> the beads will be less in number and they will settle in these multiple small depressions and roughness so the new collagen will fill these gaps and getting at the end more smoother surface as much as possible more than getting more girth gain).

To clear things up if the patient verified pure metacril was being injected, there would be no risk of infection.

However we know that there is no 20% metacril, so the doctor is either mixing, substituting with another brand, or both.

By mixing in office the risk is two fold:
*incomplete mixing leading to nodules (this problem seems to be more prevalent in 20% patients vs 10% or 30%).
*introduction of pathogens leading to infection (antibiotic would prevent this)

@Sizemic


I agree with you totally, this was indeed discussed back on the former PhalloBoards version 1 and and the my best recollection it was established that there is some sort of anti-bacterial property to this medium. FWIW


HC

Forgive me if I am wrong or out of place here... but I seem to remember on the old forum us having this discussion about infection etc and I thought we came to the conclusion that the risk of infection from PMMA is almost zero to none??? Something about the product itself and the size and nature of the beads preventing bacteria from forming etc...

I might go back and look but I thought we came to the conclusion that any infection was likely do to the entry holes (ie, not cleaning them well enough while they heal, or having sex too early etc).

Any light to be shed? Forgive me if this has already been answered...

I think the anti biotics are used primarily for preventing infection form the few small incisions they make for the cannula to go thru.

If I remember correctly, I think I did ask if they mix their PMMA at Dr C\'s office and the answer was affirmative....

\"IF\" the carrier of the PMMA of different concentrations is the same, why then if mixed will there is the potential problem of PMMA beads sticking close to each other and causing problems? once mixed and shaken well, they should technically have uniform concentration, yes?

I agree

These chinese are mimicking mostly every products in the market, it will be interesting to examine their Artefill under the electron microscope and to see their purity, I think they are capable one day to produce almost 100% pure PMMA beads like in the Artefill made in US.

I think it is a fact of life many things originate from China. And yes PMMA beads are primarily used for industrial products (paints, plastics) so they need to be cleaned first.

But Chinese are just as capable as anyone else to deliver a safe product. The PMMA/artefill is not approved by the license holders (artefil/metacril/newplastic) however, hence the lower cost.

@Bigben I do agree with your statement :- \" Personally I feel mixing the pmma in house could be much more of a problem due to potential bacteria and incomplete mixing (leading to nodules) \".


And you are right about China they manufacture the pmma microspheres and other pmma injectable products:-

As far as I know injectable the Brazilian\'s pmma products (e.g. Metacrill, NewPlast and the new Linea Safe) are all manufactured in Brazil. But the manufacturer of e.g. the past NewPlast and the new Linea safe in Porto Alegre, Brazil purchased these pmma (beads) in Korea or China. Since PMMA microspheres are mainly produced for paints, and there are no 100% clean microspheres on the market all should be washed and cleaned (sieve analysis)(which is a very complicated). But the crude pmma bone cement is manufactured in Germany.

Also as we know Artecoll which is used in e.g. Europe, Asia and Canada is used to be manufactured in Holland but now it is manufactured in China.


Also interesting in China they manufacture Artefill (1 ml=$112) very cheap :-

www.24meds.org/buying-artefill-steroid-online.php

Also again (I think) in China too they manufacture another pmma product but this time they mix pmma with Hyaluronic Acid ---> Juveni pmma permanent (3ml=$149) so cheap:-

www.components-electronic.com/product-se...z_semipermanent.html

www.juveni.com/wholesale-10-x-juveni-pmm...oplasty-30mg-ml-3ml/

But with this Juveni products you can have complications e.g. infection ??? the possibilities that the hyaluronic acid or the pmma beads are contaminated with bacteria :-

www.realself.com/forum/juveni-confort-juveni-mesolift

So that is true what you have said China is the country :- they manufacture pmma microspheres (to Brazil ??) and some pmma products (Artefill, Artecoll (e.g. Europe,Asia and Canada) and Juveni dermal fillers (Europe and Australia) etc.

This suggestion of using Chinese made stuff is very very serious. I was told by Dr C\'s office that the New Plastic they used on me (three sessions and I asekd every single time to be sure) was the original stuff, I do hope that we will find out for sure what was being used in the case of Metacrill or NP...

Dr C has a good reputation on this site and he has a lot to gain/loose, so I do hope that one way or another the facts come out to the surface now matter what they are...

Hi Bigben, I do understand your point of view (in regard of the 20% conc. risk of contamination as I have mentioned it before) but I am sorry I have to disagree with you in regard of Dr.C.\'s honesty , imo there is a big difference between these two doctors (Dr.C.+Dr.L.):-

Btw Dr.C. was not my treating Dr. and I have never met him in my life but what I have heard about him (honest and has great skills and experiernce in PMMA bioplasty) from the inventor of PMMA prof. Lemperle ( also he mentioned about Dr.Samy Passy +Dr. Marcio Serra in Rio.) these 3 doctors have great experience in PMMA injections (i.e. in the whole body not only in regard of the penis) also what we have read positive things about him from the members here . The other important thing which makes me trust this guy more:- if he was not honest; why did he bother to choose the mixture 20% ??, he could do that also with the 10% or the 30% if he was intending to cheat. Imo Dr.C. (by this mixture) is trying to find the best aesthetic result from PMMA penile bioplasty, I am sure he tried the 30% (he mentioned that) but he didn\'t like it\'s result, so he wanted to reduce the conc. of 30% just to reduce the risk of PMMA beads clustering together (lumps formation) (btw Dr.Samy disagree with him), the long-term continuity of his business, patient\'s satisfaction and his reputation are more important for him than a quick profit .

In the other hand Dr.L.\'s mixture is unknown mixing different fillers with different minerals e.g. we have Irishfan (>85cc.s =0 gain , and the strange thing Dr.L. said he is doing it for 1 year and still didn\'t find the right mixture to give him a gain of at least 0.1\") I am sure if one of these brazilian PMMA\'s products were FDA approved he will be the 1st one to use it instead of using his mixture.

Btw if somebody is interested to know who has a great experience (around 10 years) in PMMA injection in California actually he was the 1st one to use PMMA as far as I remember in this state (of course not in the penis) Dr. Douglas Hamilton in Beverly Hills

boost,
I have mentioned this before but I feel it is worth repeating. There is no 20% metacril. It does not exist. It is something that Dr Casavantes invented. There are several things he could be labeling as 20% metacril:

1. 30% and 10% metacril mixed in his office. (#1 = expensive and time consuming)
2. 30% metacril mixed with a filler in his office. We will never know what the filler is.. Saline solution ? tequila ? Dr loria\'s secret sauce ? (#2 = cheap and time consuming)
3. PMMA purchased from China. Many after market PMMA products are manufactured in the far east. In fact the brazilian makers likely have plants there. (#3 = cheap and quick)

I think 3 is the most likely as it would be the cheapest and least amount of work, but your guess is as good as mine.

Someone posted a long time ago requesting to see the PMMA packaging and Casavantes quickly changed the subject. So I think that gives us all the information we really need. Questions the PE doctors shy away from, are the ones you need to have answered. I have no intention of getting PMMA, but throw this out there for the sake of others health.

Bottom line, likely we never will know what Loria and Casavantes are injecting. And they use their patients as guinea pigs to trial new formulations.

I went to Dr N and she had a box of 10% on the counter. When i asked are we using that she said 30% was better? She also only uses one entry point at the base and a pretty large needle. when she distrubutes the metacril she uses her hands and shapes the product.

I think smartmans point 5 is the most important. My 1st round i was a bit naive to think it will just sort itself out i was in work the next day and then travelled to work away for the week. no post op care at all. but i only got 10ccs so the effect of this were limited.

@boost,

As far as I remember e.g. Mikehok received 17cc.@10% around 10 months ago and his gain in EG is still 0.4\", but in your case you received around 19-21 cc.s @10% and losing Girth?? ( either the reason is your body\'s collagen i.e. every person his body reacts differently than the other or you have a bigger stats (length+Girth) )