TOPIC: New HA filler claiming to last up to 5 years

[You\'re giving one single example, but you must have stats on how many patients you treated in total, and how many had this issue? I have not heard this before, and would like to know the stats. Everything has risk, but people decide to proceed or not based on statistics, not a single anecdotal case. If that were the case, people would read darkstaff\'s pmma experience and nobody would have it done!]

For HA yes. From the first 1,000 we had:
- 7 granuloma
- 5 infections
- 1 allergic reaction
- 2 significant filler migrations

We have subsequently had 2 more infections and one vascular occlusion where filler pressed into the blood vessel reducing the blood from outside the blood vessel and needed to be dissolved. Note: not intravascular occlusion.

[Yes, but he still does the procedure if patients request it, and has had good results (as has Dr Oats). Does he tell patients in advance that if something goes wrong he can\'t do anything? Or does he discuss with them what the specific odds are and actually have a some plan to treat possible outcomes?]

Yes so far the results are good. Dr Horn has refused a lot of patients Ellanse (some from this forum) and only agrees to go ahead if he thinks they fully understand the difference and have the capacity to make that decision (mentally stable, clearly understand the risk, preferably a repeat patient who has had HA before so they are familiar with the general aftercare back at home).

[Everyone knows that, but you\'re on a forum where for years guys are opting for pmma (which is permanent) on a daily basis, based on a long history of good and some negative outcomes.]

All the senior board members understand well, but in the UK because of recent BBC \'docu-torials\' (documentary/advertising lets say), there are many new penis filler patients probably coming onto this board, who don\'t understand the difference.

[Saying HA is safer is not going to convince a lot of guys to opt for it after doing years of research, and realizing that many guys spend a lot of money on HA and have it dissolved because it\'s \"squishy\" and feels like a \"padded dick\" ...]

It should not be squishy, if it is then it might not have been the right HA, or the filler injection or aftercare was poor. I know for example that Teoysal Ultra Deep is like wood.

[yes there are some lucky guys who are OK with HA]

How do you explain this? I think the unhappy ones might have had the wrong filler, or injected badly, or bad aftercare. I think Voluma or another firm HA filler injected with the method in the video above is not squishy at all when erect.

[but there are a lot of guys who are not, and in some locations guys are paying 10K USD for 15 ml ... which last 1.5 years, and which they may not be satisfied with.]

$10k ('8,000) for 15 ml is about 2.5x the price in the UK for 15ml. I think Voluma and other HA fillers are very expensive for doctors to purchase in USA.[As long as there are alternatives like pmma or ellanse that last longer and feel more natural (I take this as confirmed), then people will opt for these over HA unless it is shown by reported / documented cases (with pics), clinical studies, and other real data that it\'s not worth the risk. Note that in Gary Alter\'s editorial comment on the pmma study, his main concern was what may happen \"a decade\" down the road ... at least for ellanse that\'s not a concern.]

Gary Alter\'s comments are quite bad. 50% irregularities - it depends on how bad the irregularities are. But again, with a big assumption that dermal fillers (HA/Ellanse/PMMA) have a similar propensity for irregularity, 4 years and no ability to dissolve is quite a problem?

[

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(16)30328-9/abstractI\'m not arguing there is no risk, I\'m just asking you to contribute actual data and stats on those risks, if you have them.]Dr Horn is working on an article for a peer-reviewed journal.

Coming just from me, what I can tell you that I see from HA is, infection (very rare), granuloma (very rare), little bits of stray filler (maybe 5% of cases so quite common) (aside from the 2 major filler migrations, 1 caused the patient having anal sex 2 days after HA injection). No problems from Ellanse yet but the sample size is tiny. At least 100 cases in a sample over 2-3 years... would that be reasonable.

Think.
[The only complication of Nodule formation and other irregularities can be overcome by an improved injection technique and better postimplantation care.]

It would be the postimplantation care (moulding) rather than the injection technique. A layer is being filled with a liquid that can move around until it stabilises. It is not the same as having filler in the cheeks where it will near enough stay in the same spot unless manipulated away from that spot.

Androfill wrote: For HA yes. From the first 1,000 we had:
- 7 granuloma
- 5 infections
- 1 allergic reaction
- 2 significant filler migrations

Thanks for the info!

Androfill wrote: It should not be squishy, if it is then it might not have been the right HA, or the filler injection or aftercare was poor.

Well, costa said it was, and you guys did his. He had it dissolved. The report of squishiness is \"not infrequent\" from all the cases I\'ve read about, and guys I personally communicated with who had it. And this is voluma. This was also the major complaint in the original korean HA study. Dunno about ultra deep. Why are so many practices using voluma if this is so good?

Androfill wrote: No problems from Ellanse yet but the sample size is tiny. At least 100 cases in a sample over 2-3 years... would that be reasonable.

Thanks again for the info. Combined with Dr oats almost 2 years experience plus morganster 7 months, so far so good it seems. I hope it continues to go this way, because I believe like @chester that it is superior in terms long lasting and feeling 100 percent natural when Flaccid and Erect.

Patients could use Teoysal Ultra Deep which is a very hard HA. I think a few patients from this forum have tried it though Androfill, but, it is hard to dissolve away (which negates the whole point of HA) and can only be injected a few ml at a time, and it is quite painful for up to 1 month (it wants to hold its shape).

[Thanks again for the info. Combined with Dr oats almost 2 years experience plus morganster 7 months, so far so good it seems. I hope it continues to go this way, because I believe like @chester that it is superior in terms long lasting and feeling 100 percent natural when flaccid and erect.]

I hope so too.
I think Voluma injected correctly and with good aftercare is fine when erect. What do Dr O\'s HA patients say? If it is squishy when erect the patients should get in touch This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and have it fixed.
Patients could use Teoysal Ultra Deep which is a very hard HA. I think a few patients from this forum have tried it though Androfill, but, it is hard to dissolve away (which negates the whole point of HA) and can only be injected a few ml at a time, and it is quite painful for up to 1 month (it wants to hold its shape).

Androfill wrote: If it is squishy when erect the patients should get in touch This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and have it fixed.

This was from one of your other patients:

I am becoming more used to the new feel of my penis but now that it has reached its new normal state i can say that i can definitely feel the filler. When soft the consistency can vary from a gel-like feel when its warmer to a harder gummy bear feel when cooler. When hard its also detectable it feels like a padding layer, softer than the erection. I am surprised actually, i was expecting voluma to feel much firmer but at this stage i think this is what its going to stay like.

Later in the thread he says it feels \"natural enough\" .... sounds like he\'s trying to convince himself

phalloboards.websitetoolbox.com/post/vol...uk-8413557?&trail=15

[Later in the thread he says it feels \"natural enough\" .... sounds like he\'s trying to convince himself]

This is also how I would personally describe it \'natural enough\'. I think hard to detect unless you know what to look for (as a third party) or unless you have a bad result. In terms of the patient himself, most of the sensation is in the head so the experience of sex is not a lot different except perhaps snugly fitting.

What was more relevant about the post was the below, that the filler is not uniformly dissolving, in his case it goes quickly from the base. HA is certainly not toxic if absorbed quickly. But it is a hassle to have to keep refilling one area.

It reminded me of two things I had previously discussed regarding Ellanse, and I apologise I did not get good explanations, although I am sure someone knows and maybe it is a red herring.
1. If there is uneven biosorption of the filler, for example it degrades more quickly towards the head, is it as easy to break through the layer of Ellanse with the cannula from the pubis to refill that area, or, in this case, would you inject from the head back to even out the size.
2. Is this layer between the dartos and bucks being closed up by Ellanse for the duration of the filler, or for good, and does that matter... perhaps material can always be forced in there regardless of a blockage? I imagine it is hard to break through Ellanse with the cannula. On the other hand, plenty of chaps are having multiple sessions of PMMA presumably the cannula is finding its way through this layer just as easily in subsequent sessions as in the first round and is not being blocked by the existing filler.

[Hey all sorry missed a few questions recently, so there\'s good news and bad news. Overall it seems to be reabsorbing slowly and I must still have a fair amount of the orinial voluma from 18 months ago, perhaps 40%? The bad news is that this is not true for all the shaft! The base needs toping up every 6 months which is very annoying I have no idea whether it\'s reabsorbed there or if its moving. And if its moving where is it going?? Hopefully not into the rest of the body! Also it doesn\'t dissolve uniformly. After 6 months I start noticing hollow spots here and there and refilling them is not easy. Really hard to explain to the Dr where he needs to refill.

So it\'s a mixed bag, a lot of hassle and money but at the same time I do now have a pretty huge Dick! Can\'t wait for a longer lasting and cheaper filler though.]

Androfill wrote: This is also how I would personally describe it \'natural enough\'. I think hard to detect unless you know what to look for (as a third party) or unless you have a bad result. In terms of the patient himself, most of the sensation is in the head so the experience of sex is not a lot different except perhaps snugly fitting.

There were other\'s who had women make comments as well, and I\'m sure I can find the quote, so it\'s not just in his head. This was your patient and after reading his comments in total, including the part about it being insanely expensive to keep up, I just don\'t find it encouraging.

My personal experience with 10ml real Voluma within the first month was that it was only somewhat noticeable when not Erect. When Erect, it was hard and not noticeable at all. After the first month, I seemed to have metabolized most of it. That, or it moved deep in my groin due to repeat sex with a tight partner, I honestly don't know. Or maybe it's all there and my gains are just super slight? Sounds unlikely. I still have a very thin layer (maybe 1/8 to 1/4' in areas) that only I can feel, but it would take a highly experienced eye for anyone else to notice it. I am considering another round to see if my body will keep it longer this time (I'm only a few months out from my first procedure and have to say it was great initially). Otherwise, Voluma might not be for me.

by chance I just read mato23\'s description of Belotero and he used the \"padded Dick\" description. When i\'m 100 percent Erect it feels like a rock... personally i don\'t want anything that feels like padding, but thats me.

aleksk wrote: @think Also, let\'s not lose perspective here. You may feel like a rock when hard, but you\'re CUT. \'mato\' or I are not. Let me go back to my most basic point under 1) above.

@aleksk I\'m not losing perspective of anything, before you brought up uncut guys I was specifically talking about voluma, and how it\'s expensive and not ideal for some guys--and I gave example of two guys who were also CUT and not satisfied with it.

Anyway, glad you broke your silence, hope you have some good ideas to contribute. They seem to be needed.

[I had Teosyal Ultra Deep with a very experienced, highly-trained injector (easily verifiable for those who care to verify it). Rather than hard wood, it felt like a sponge filled with water. I literally couldn\'t have any penetrative sex unless a lot of lube was involved, and sometimes not even then.

Was it noticeable? Absolutely. It took about 4 or 5 sessions of spot-adding and spot dissolving and ultimately dissolving most of it to get it to a stage where it was not really noticeable. I was lucky I had an experienced, very professional and caring doctor so somehow I pulled through all this. But by that time the gains were minimal. It was not in my head, I had sex partners asking me why my Dick \'looks like that\'. Good luck maintaining Erection after a question like that.]

Sorry but I have to ask...

1. how certain are you it was Teoysal Ultra Deep?
Because that does not sound correct - it is painfully hard for a month before integrating and then remains very firm.

2. Why all the dissolving and reinjecting - dissolving can weaken the filler that is not completely cleared (making it mushier).
Hyalase generates a lot of swelling lasting for weeks and sometimes months in some patients (could this have contributed to the feeling). Multiple sessions can leave residual swelling for a long time.
I stand by the comment that Teoysal Ultra Deep is very firm, so much so that we don\'t allow patients to take more than 2-4ml at a time. 2 ml is '530 / $700 for reference. It has a tendency to pool together so we have spread it finely (1 or 2 ml right / left side).

3. How was it injected, between dartos and bucks?

[1. How it feels has to do a lot with whether someone is Circumcised or not and for those that are not, how tight the skin naturally is.]

This is more relevant if injected superficially, filler is less likely in the Foreskin region if using cannula deep to dartos.

[For the vast majority of uncut men, getting good result is a huge challenge.]

Why? Filler migration to the Foreskin area? Please expand on this.
We used to get this sometimes but now have ways to prevent it. I do not see it as being any more difficult but I am interested to know more. What is it about the uncut penis specifically, I don\'t follow.

[In fact, fillers designed to attract as little water as possible, like the Belotero type used under the eyes, might be much more suitable in this respect.]
Teoysal Kiss is a good candidate in this respect, but these fillers are very soft and do not last very long, even under the eye. In the penis the lifespan is going to be less.

Do you have a link to the thread explain the details of your procedure, how was the HA injected and by whom... curious. Thanks.

[My personal experience with 10ml real Voluma within the first month was that it was only somewhat noticeable when not Erect. When Erect, it was hard and not noticeable at all. After the first month, I seemed to have metabolized most of it. That, or it moved deep in my groin due to repeat sex with a tight partner, I honestly don't know. Or maybe it's all there and my gains are just super slight? Sounds unlikely. I still have a very thin layer (maybe 1/8 to 1/4' in areas) that only I can feel, but it would take a highly experienced eye for anyone else to notice it. I am considering another round to see if my body will keep it longer this time (I'm only a few months out from my first procedure and have to say it was great initially). Otherwise, Voluma might not be for me. ]

For the first month there can be a bit of swelling and this might be what you lost.

[There were other\'s who had women make comments as well, and I\'m sure I can find the quote, so it\'s not just in his head. This was your patient and after reading his comments in total, including the part about it being insanely expensive to keep up, I just don\'t find it encouraging.]

It is '1,100 / $1,400 to try 6ml of Cutegel in the UK using the method in the video earlier in the thread. If you don\'t like it then you will have lost $1,400 - and importantly this is most likely all you will have lost (in other words no damage done to the penis).
The patient you refer to had a huge amount of filler in a very ambitious augmentation and the result looks impressive. But a big gain requires a lot of maintenance. You can stick to 0.25 - 0.75 Inch increase in Girth and it is more sensible, economical (initially and to maintain), and possibly feels slightly more natural with a thinner layer of filler. More than this and the % penis to filler ratio is going down.

We have had 1 or 2 complete dissolves over the past 3 years & 1,100 patients. One who had HA dissolved is mediatps
It is possible there are unsatisfied who simply let it all dissolve away naturally and don\'t inform the clinic.
The complaints I get are 1. It has gone too fast (often swelling subsiding). 2. Irregularity. 3. Underwhelmed by the size gain.